He Art of Manliness Episode 316 an Introduction to Stoicism

Involvement in Stoicism has experienced a renaissance in recent years. Nevertheless despite the increasing popularity of this ancient philosophy, misconceptions yet abound about information technology. For example, many people assume that to be Stoic means to non experience or expressany emotion, including happiness, and that Stoicism requires ane to live a bland and spartan lifestyle. My guest on the show today debunks these myths, and shows that Stoicism can actually enrich our lives and permit us to experience real happiness. His proper name is Bill Irvine and he's a professor of philosophy and the writer ofA Guide to the Practiced Life: The Ancient Fine art of Stoic Joy.

In our give-and-take, Bill shares the origins of Stoicism and how the Romans modified Greek Stoicism to fit their culture. We then become into specific Stoic practices you lot can implement today to start improving your life. Nib shares the power of negative visualization, how to approach things you take some, but not complete control over, and how to purposely inject discomfort into your life to increase your grit. Bill then explains the Stoic duty of socializing and how to maintain your Stoic serenity even with the most difficult of people. We then discuss what the Stoics would take thought of political correctness and microaggressions and some of the critiques of Stoicism.

If you've been wanting to empathize Stoicism more than, merely haven't known how to get started, this podcast is a great introduction and is packed with not but background data but actionable advice.

Show Highlights

• How Irvine settled on Stoicism as a guiding philosophy
• The history of Stoic philosophy
• Roman Stoicism vs Greek Stoicism
• The misconceptions of Stoicism
• The ways in which Stoics actually experience more joy and please than other people
• Why a guiding philosophy of life is of import
• Specific Stoic practices to start implementing in your life
• Why thinking about negative outcomes can actually help yous observe more joy
• The dichotomy of command
• The role of emotions in Stoicism
• Exercise Stoics have to be stoic people?
• Why to inject hard and uncomfortable things into your life — "exercises of voluntary discomfort"
• The role of fate in Stoic philosophy
• What Stoicism might have to say nigh political definiteness, microagressions, and trigger warnings
• How a Stoic responds to insults
• How Irvine responds to critiques of Stoicism

Resources/People/Articles Mentioned in Podcast

• A Slap in the Face by William Irvine
• Meditations on Meditations: Reflections on a Beginning Reading of Aurelius
• My podcast with Robert Fuller almost the power of wonder
• Cato: Lessons From a Self-Fabricated Man
• My podcast with Bill Damon about finding your life'south purpose
• Mentally Erase Your Blessings for Greater Joy and Optimism
• The Dichotomy of Control
• Warren Buffett'southward inner scorecard
• My podcast with David Brooks about the road to character
• You lot May Exist Strong, But Are You lot Tough?
• How to Accept Criticism
• My podcast almost the ascent of microaggressions and victimhood culture

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Download this episode.

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Read the Transcript

Brett McKay: Welcome to some other edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Well, interest in Stoicism has experienced a renaissance in contempo years, yet despite the increasing popularity of this ancient philosophy, misconceptions still abound about it. For instance, many people assume that to be Stoic means to not feel or express any emotion, including happiness, and that Stoicism requires one to live a bland and Spartan lifestyle.

My guest on the show today debunks these myths and shows that Stoicism can actually enrich our lives and allow us to experience existent happiness. His name is Neb Irvine, and he's a professor of philosophy and the author of A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy. In our discussion, Bill shares the origins of Stoicism and how the Romans modified Greek Stoicism to fit their civilization. We then become into the specific Stoic practices y'all can implement today to get-go improving your life.

For example, Bill shares the power of negative visualization, how to approach things you lot accept some but not complete control over, and how to purposefully inject discomfort in your life to increase your grit. Beak and then explains the Stoic duty of socializing, and how to maintain your Stoic serenity even with the almost hard of people. We then discuss what the Stoics would accept thought well-nigh political definiteness and microaggressions and some of the critiques against Stoicism.

If you've been wanting to understand Stoicism more than, merely haven't known how to go started, this podcast is a great introduction. It is packed with not simply background information but actual communication. Make sure to check out the evidence notes at aom.is/stoic, where you tin can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.

Right. Bill Irvine, welcome to the show.

William Irvine: It's a pleasure to be hither. Give thanks you for asking me to be a guest.

Brett McKay: So I'chiliad a big fan of your work, you've written a volume virtually insults and how to handle them, which I enjoyed quite a fleck, and it segues nicely with this book that we're going to talk about today. It's The Stoic Art of Joy. What I dearest about the book, it's such a great introductory volume to the topic of Stoicism. You become into the history of information technology and also simply details about specific Stoic practices.

But let's talk about your history with Stoicism before nosotros get into Stoicism. You lot're a philosopher. You teach philosophy. But you came to Stoicism later on in life. Before you discovered Stoicism, what sort of philosophy did you focus on in your career?

William Irvine: Well I got into philosophy considering I, in loftier school, belatedly high school, I adult an interest in Henry David Thoreau and he was referred to as a philosopher, then I thought that by taking philosophy courses in college, I could become deeper into what he was doing and what other like-minded people accept been doing. Only to observe that modern philosophy, at least in the Us, has pretty much lost its interest in coming up with stuff that's applicative to life as we live it.

The exception to that would exist the branch known as Ideals, which is trying to tell you what's morally obligatory and what'southward morally forbidden. But most of the choices, and some of the most meaning choices, we brand in daily living aren't ethical choices but they're but questions about, "What should I be trying to attain correct now? What's the best means for me to attain it? What practise I demand to do in order to take what, on balance, volition be a good life?"

I found the classes I was taking were oblivious to such questions. I stuck on with it, though, and knew that if I wanted to get a job teaching philosophy, I had to main that portion of the philosophical discussion. So I did.

But so, it was much later that it dawned on me that I was becoming an old human being and still hadn't found a philosophy by which to live. Wasn't that a deplorable state of diplomacy? Then I kind of did the adjacent step. So I fiddled with Buddhism for awhile. I decided I was going to write a book in which I explored Buddhism. So equally an aging homo, I decided I needed to adopt a philosophy for living. The one that attracted me initially was Buddhism.

I decided that what I would practise is practise research for a book on Buddhism. I had two goals in doing that. Number one is it would count as a publication. Which would exist skilful for my career. Number ii, I thought that by doing the inquiry into Buddhism, I could convert myself into a functioning, practicing Buddhist. So I would get a double return on this investment of research time.

But a funny thing happened along the style, and that is that in order to be consummate in my research, I had to take a department on the philosophical views in the ancient world, at least, to philosophy for living. Started looking into Stoicism. Very quickly realized I had a misconception about who the Stoics were and what they were after.

Earlier I knew it, I was practicing Stoicism in a depression-grade experimental kind of way. Was surprised by the impact it was having on my life. So by the time the book was done, I no longer had an interest in being a Buddhist. I decided I was going to be a practicing Stoic.

Brett McKay: So, what were those misconceptions you had about Stoicism that made you to write information technology off for long?

William Irvine: Well, it was the standard misconception that Stoics, the capital S Stoics, uppercase S Stoics, were also lowercase southward stoical and that is that their goal was to suppress all emotions and simply bottle themselves up and then they became oblivious to the kinds of disasters that the earth would present. What I discovered is that they weren't anti-emotion. They can amend exist described as anti-negative emotion.

So they drew the conclusion, from their observation of humanity, that nosotros human beings feel all sorts of negative emotions. It's our own fault that we do. And then negative emotions like anger, like grief, like envy, and you can fill out that list considerably, those are things that disrupt our days and disrupt our lives.

Yet, information technology dawned on the Stoics that to a considerable extent, if we're experiencing those emotions, it's self-inflicted. It's because of sure values nosotros've adopted. Information technology's because of sure strategies for living that we've chosen to employ. And so nosotros accept it in our power to alter our goal in living and to alter the strategies we use. We can thereby make those negative emotions, they never disappear from your life simply you can diminish their impact on you.

At the same fourth dimension, the Stoics had no problem at all with experiencing positive emotions. For instance, one of my favorite positive emotions is the feeling of delight. As a Stoic, you lot're delighted by any number of things that normal people will take utterly for granted. So you take, perhaps the ultimate positive emotion, and that is a feeling of joy. This disembodied feeling of simply gratitude that you become to exist role of this universe, populated by these people. Then it's a wonderful matter to take. Wonderful thing to experience. The Stoics said, "There's nix wrong with that." So for me, that worked wonderfully well.

Now, before I go any farther, if at that place are practicing Buddhists in your audience, there, they shouldn't take this equally a put-down of Buddhism. I'd be the first to say that what works for some people might not piece of work for other people. Given my ain intellectual frame of listen, Stoicism simply works a lot ameliorate for me than Buddhism does.

Brett McKay: So, allow's talk about the history of Stoicism. It'due south oftentimes associated with the Romans, Seneca and Cato, and Marcus Aurelius, but it got its start in Greece. What is Stoicism's pedigree? Did it have any connectedness to the other schools of philosophy that were in Ancient Greece, similar the Academy, or Plato's school?

William Irvine: Yes. Back then, a school of philosophy would literally be a school. You know, now we say "school of philosophy," it's simply kind of a organization of thinking, or something like that. Simply it would be literally a school. If y'all wanted to make your living doing philosophy, you started a school. Now, if you had a school that taught purely theoretical things, probably you lot wouldn't get very many students because the people of that time, this would be 400 BC, you know, in Greece, had other things on their mind. Yous know, they had things that they needed to worry about.

But if yous had a school that promised them, or that offered them, advice on how to take a good life, and maybe brought in other kinds of theoretical cloth at the same time, then y'all could get students. So what they had at that time was multiple competing schools.

You know, and the analogy I use in the book is, information technology'due south like schools of martial arts today. You know, if yous tell me that you desire to develop your power to do street fighting, then I'd say, "Well, take a wait, go online. You'll find in that location's any number of rival schools." Some volition tell you how to fight with your hands. Some volition say, "No, y'all need to bring in your feet as well." And then, the question is, which of those is going to work all-time for you?

Same was true in the ancient world with respect to schools of philosophy. You would have had many different schools to choose from. The schools would take offered different communication on what your goals should exist in living. And the schools also would have given you dissimilar strategies for attaining any they took to exist the thing of value.

So you had some schools, that said, "Party difficult!" You had other schools that said, and this would be the Stoics, "If you want to have a adept life, what you need to do is kickoff realize that the matter of greatest value in life is tranquility." Then secondly, they said, "If what y'all seek is tranquility, here's the fashion to attain it." And then it's an interestingly dissimilar approach to philosophy than what yous find in mod colleges, for instance.

Another thing to realize is that, with respect to ancient Stoicism, it started out with the Greeks. The problem is, most of their writings take been lost. So we have only, by report, nosotros know of well-nigh of the things they had to say. And then the 2d thing is, when the Romans acquired Stoicism, when they decided they were going to showtime their own Stoic schools, they put a different spin on it. The whole notion about tranquillity as the goal, is really more closely associated with the Romans than with the Greeks.

Brett McKay: Correct. So, I hateful, I think in the … Lot of people don't realize. I remember when people hear Stoicism, they think about the ethics role, right? These sort of the Stoic practices to maintain serenity. I think that's because of the Greeks. But lot of people don't realize that the Stoics besides thought about, sort of, the theoretical. They had schools of logic, and ideas well-nigh physics. How did their thought of physics and logic influence their ethics, I judge is the question I'm trying to get at?

William Irvine: The physics is harder to see why that would necktie in. You lot know, if you were a parent choosing a school of philosophy for your kid, you lot want your kid to come up out a well-rounded person. So you want him to acquire ability at reasoning, for instance. You want him to acquire, at some level, a knowledge of the earth. You desire him to acquire, if he was going to exist a lawyer or a pol, the ability to put together a cogent statement, which required logical skills. Besides, the ability to spot the mistakes in the arguments of others.

And claim, if you really cared about your kid, 1 of the principle takeaways of education would be an agreement of what in life was almost important and how to get the thing that was near important. And of course, colleges, yous know, in the earth today, will teach a career, simply they have very picayune interest in saying to you, "Hither's what's worth having and here's a strategy for getting the thing worth having."

So if you go to college now to go a lawyer, you're going to get a lot of advice on how to exist a lawyer, but, you know, unless yous went out of your style, the communication on how to live is very much in the background.

Brett McKay: Why practise you think we're and then tepid to teach students about, y'all know, acquiring a philosophy of life? Because that's like, you make the case in the volume, that'southward probably the virtually of import thing y'all tin can have, is to guide all other decisions you make in life.

William Irvine: I retrieve it'south considering we aren't confident that we possess such a philosophy. Every bit y'all've heard me already propose, I don't claim to accept the reply, but I have an answer that works really well for a lot of people, and an answer that works better by far than what the default answer would be.

I mean, so most people, what practice they do? If yous enquire them, "What is information technology you want in life?" They will, now perhaps not in the straight manner I'thousand going to state it, but they will propose that what they're pursuing in life is wealth and fame. That if you're actually famous and you have a ton of money, that ways y'all've had a practiced life. In that location are whatever number of counter-examples to that claim. But that seems to be what people are working on. That'south kind of the default.

So, first thing you lot can do with a philosophy of life, is to effort to talk people out of that default setting that they're on. Then increase their chances of coming up with a ameliorate answer. So ane thing modernistic colleges could do is expose students to a wide range of philosophies of life, and then let the students choose.

If nada else, by doing that, what they could accomplish is to testify people that information technology'south possible to live in a thoughtful manner in pursuit of some ultimate goal. Rather than simply following the crowd and assuming that every other person around yous has done their homework on this outcome. Because most of them oasis't. They've simply gotten into default mode, where what they're interested in is fame and fortune.

Brett McKay: So permit's dig into some of these specific Stoic practices you highlight in the book. The beginning one is negative visualization. So this is basically thinking about, y'all know, the worst possible outcome. How tin thinking about what could, everything that could become wrong, how can that actually lead to more happiness?

William Irvine: Okay. Well, if the advice were to dwell on negative outcomes, then it would exist terrible advice considering you're going to become quickly a horribly depressed private. You're but going to go around moping about how sad everything is. But that isn't their advice. Their communication is that you should allow yourself to have flickering thoughts. So a flickering thought is the key phrase. About how things could exist worse.

It's amazing, number one, whatever life you are living, things could be worse. Things could be very, dramatically, worse than they are. I hateful, if you're telling me about how bad your life is, hey, guess what? You've got the power to speak. There are people who don't.

You know, in that location are these interesting cases of people who, not only lose the power to speak, but lose the ability to communicate in any way. You know, they accept what's called Locked-in Syndrome. They might be able to blink 1 eye. Well, if you can tell me how miserable you are, you're non in that situation. So, estimate what? Things could be worse. People have that thought. Then they realize, yous know, it'south true. Things could be worse.

Brett McKay: So yes, y'all don't dwell on it, because that will just turn you into a neurotic worrywart. What practise you lot do, I hateful, I think this would piece of work well for folks who, okay, they're living a comfortable life. You're like, okay, my car is totaled. Information technology could be worse. I still, I tin can take care of this.

What if, similar, when you're destitute? Is this still effective? I mean, you're like, "Hey, at to the lowest degree you lot're still alive." It's like, "Well, I'm live but things are terrible." Do y'all recall that, the negative visualization works even if your life is actually really, actually, it's like stone bottom?

William Irvine: You know, we have the stories of ancient hardships. So there was Musonius Rufus, who was exiled to the Greek island of Gyarus. Information technology was a desolate rock. At present in that location were some fishermen who lived there, just otherwise information technology was cypher. So from the Romans' point of view, "Well, we aren't going to kill him. We're going to let him alive. But we're going to put him on this stone." Then, the interesting matter was that he was able to detect things to be thankful most even under those circumstances.

You know what? If you take that power in you, you are pretty much impenetrable to an incredible extent. So life can really abuse you in a number of means, which is unfortunate. But the key thing is, yous don't become a broken homo being as the result of that.

At present Seneca, the Roman Stoic, was at the other end of the spectrum. He got in trouble with Emperor Nero and was eventually sentenced, non just to death, but to death past suicide. The accounts are that despite that particular fate, he remained an upbeat, consummate human being until the last moment. Which is startling to recall about.

Brett McKay: Okay, then another Stoic do you talk nearly in the book is the Stoic Trichotomy of Control. This is actually, you modified an original Stoic idea. What was the original Stoic thought, and how did you modify it?

William Irvine: The original thought might be called the Dichotomy of Command. So it's a dichotomy. Information technology's either ane or the other. So when it comes to the bug in your life, the Stoics said, at that place are those that you can command and those that you can't control, and you lot're foolish to spend your time thinking and worrying about things y'all tin can't control. Because, after all, you have no control over them.

I kind of tampered with that a little fleck. I remember I antiseptic it. Considering if you recollect about information technology carefully, there'southward actually iii unlike possibilities. There's things you have absolute control over. That might include your beliefs. It might include your desires, although perhaps that's arguable. At that place are things you lot have absolutely no control over. Such equally whether the sun'due south going to rise tomorrow. Y'all obviously shouldn't concern yourself with those things.

But, and the Stoics didn't make this clear, it seems similar there's this heart class of things where you have some, only not accented, control. For example, how people care for y'all, and how they relate to you. If y'all treat everybody terribly, they're going to exist mean to you, probably, and if you lot're dainty to everybody, there's a good hazard, but it'south not a sure affair, that they're going to be nice back to y'all.

Just again, the Stoic advice would be, "You lot should really concern yourself with things you lot take complete control over." One of them would be your character. Y'all should word very hard to develop your character, since you take complete control over that. You should care very much most it. You should non let yourself to think for even a microsecond about things you take no command over. Because you don't have control over them.

So, there'southward an intermediate corporeality of thought to those things that you're going to have some, but not complete, control over. Yous know, and then at that place'southward all sorts of qualifications that come up in. Although you may have zilch control over whether an result happens or doesn't happen. You might take considerable command over how the event affects you. Then you can accept preventative measures. You tin take measures to brand things not as bad as they otherwise might be.

The Stoics were absolutely fine with that. But if yous expect at the people around you, and peradventure fifty-fifty think about yourself, and you realize there'due south a whole bunch of but time wasted thinking, worrying, dreading things that you don't have any control over. Y'all know, life is precious. To spend it on that is a compassion.

Then, also, not to spend the time, the investment of time, on things you do take control over, like your personality, that's also tragic. Because that can have a huge influence on your life. You do have consummate command. So if you're ignoring it, shame on yous.

Brett McKay: Then where practise emotions play in this trichotomy? Because I recall there's a perception out there that Stoics believe, like, you lot accept complete control over your emotions. Did they think that, or was it something dissimilar?

William Irvine: No, it's, Stoics realize that emotions are a real issue for human being beings. So when information technology came to emotions, first thing they did is they distinguished between negative emotions and positive emotions. So negative emotions include anger, they include envy. Envy is a really terrible negative emotion. Underrated in the impairment that information technology does.

Positive emotions are feelings of joy, are feelings of delights. The Stoics had cypher against the positive emotions. In fact, they thought we should live our life in a way that would increase the number of positive emotions nosotros experienced. But they also thought we should become out of our fashion to reduce the number of negative emotions we experience.

They besides realized that it was impossible for us always to get the number downwardly to zero. But we could reduce the number dramatically. For instance, in their discussion of grief, they said that if someone you know and beloved dies suddenly, that grief is the natural emotion, and and then y'all will feel it, and in some sense you should feel information technology. But you should keep it within its proper confines. He describes people who, yous know, a decade afterward the death of a spouse are still mourning the expiry of the spouse. Well, that's just too much.

So they acknowledge the beingness of emotions, they welcome some emotions, and they thought nosotros needed to work on techniques for limiting the damage that the negative emotions could do to the states. And they had some ideas on how nosotros could do that.

Brett McKay: Yep, I approximate one of them was, I guess Seneca was, "Imagine your son'due south already dead" was one of them.

William Irvine: Y'all should not imagine that he's expressionless, but you lot should have a flickering idea that, a realization and acknowledgement of the fact that he will die. At first, when people hear that, actually that was Epictetus who kind of nearly famously said that. Simply when people first hear that, they think, "Well, what a terrible, terrible affair to think."

But the Stoics would say but the opposite. They will just allow myself to take the flickering idea that this might be the last time I meet that friend. It really is remarkable, considering and so the next fourth dimension I see them, information technology'southward this delightful event, yous know, considering information technology didn't accept to exist that fashion.

So it'southward curious, yous know. They were some of the preeminent psychologists of their fourth dimension, and they take these insights that, to our mod ears, sound only crazy. But if you lot, like the idea that by thinking near people dying we can really meliorate our relationships with them, but I encourage your listeners to give it a try.

Once again, don't dwell on the deaths of other people. That's a recipe for a miserable existence. Only this whole notion of a fleeting thought that you allow yourself to have about bad things that can happen. It's wonderfully easy to do and it'due south wonderfully constructive. At least that'due south what I've found in my own life.

Brett McKay: So with this part of the trichotomy where in that location'due south things you have control over simply non complete control over, what's the Stoic arroyo to those things? And then that you lot put some attempt into it just you lot don't vex yourself besides much. How should you go about those items?

William Irvine: Yep, the example I give of that in my book I did, The Good Life, is I talk about a tennis match. And so it's in that middle basis. There are some things you can command, some things you lot can't control. So how practice you prepare for a lawn tennis match? Well, you do the all-time you can to prepare for it. That might mean getting coaching, that might hateful practice, that might mean, you know, how much you sleep the night before. That'll mean a whole variety of things. So, that's the part y'all tin can control.

And then you do the command yous can. But here's the thing. Suppose that despite that, that you lose the match. Then the Stoics' approach would be, "Well, so what?" I did the best I could. If that wasn't skilful enough, that means the other person is simply a amend player than I am. I can live with that.

Simply that whole notion of, in life, you know, pick your challenges and then do the best y'all tin can on those challenges. And so, win, lose or draw, yous know, that's it. You don't allow yourself to go upset over it because that is the best you lot tin do. To ask yourself, or to blame yourself for not doing better than the best you could do, again, that would be another recipe for a miserable life.

Now, there are people who do that. And they do seem to accept miserable lives. It's avoidable. Isn't that tragic?

Brett McKay: Right. That sounds also an awful lot similar Warren Buffet's Inner Scorecard. He has this idea of, he keeps an Inner Scorecard. Doesn't really worry virtually the externals. Just as long as I'm doing what I know I'thousand supposed to be doing, everything is fine.

William Irvine: Certain, and I'yard a competitive rower. Then I'1000 out there racing against other boats. I don't win very often. I practise come in terminal place some of the fourth dimension. Merely internally, what am I really doing? I'thou racing against myself. I'm causing myself a degree of needless discomfort. How come? To build character.

So what counts as success in a race? Well, doing the all-time I could. Well, what if I'chiliad last identify? Well, the question is, did I practise the best I could? And did I get the value out of the training that I hoped to leave of the grooming?

You know, it teaches you lot other things. I of them, it teaches you is self-discipline. It's a chance to exercise a kind of backbone, a very valuable matter. It'south a chance to practice the strategy of, when things await hopeless, just go on trying. And, you know, there are a lot of people that, when things await, non even hopeless, but but they don't look like sure things, they cease trying. And that's a bad thing. Considering at that place'south so much of life where, you know, really just a fleck more try on your part can brand a huge difference in the outcome.

Brett McKay: And then let's talk most fate. Fate's a big part of the Stoic philosophy because fate is a function of nature, and you have to just accept fate. But being a fatalist seems very passive. And just similar, "Well, you lot can't do anything about it because that's what fate had in store for you lot." So how did the Stoics arroyo fate, where they accustomed it but nevertheless tried to be active in their life?

William Irvine: Stoics, again, would practice a kind of segmentation here. They would say, "You lot should exist fatalistic with regard to things that have happened in the by. You should be fatalistic with regard to any is happening to you at this very instant. Because you can't change those things. Then you can either accept them the manner they are or you tin can make yourself miserable."

But they weren't fatalists about, fatalistic near the future. So you can have an bear on on what happens in the future. So we're kind of back to the dichotomy of control. And then it makes it sensible for you to invest time, energy, intellectual processes into trying to shape the future, simply then, when that future arrives, you can't change it. It's there. So what do y'all practice? You make best of it, and then you go along to any is going to happen the adjacent day. Yous look forrard to tomorrow.

In that location are people who, it's a strange thing, but they're perpetually hoping for a better future and they're perpetually disturbed, disgusted, dismayed by whatever life they happen to be experiencing at that very moment. Downside is that ways they get to spend their entire life dismayed, disturbed, disgusted. So you know what, embrace the life you find yourself living while simultaneously trying to improve that life in various sorts of measures.

I mean, when yous're a Stoic, and you wait effectually at how people are living, and you know the same is probably truthful of other philosophies of life, if y'all're a Buddhist and yous look around at how people are living, and you're struck by how needlessly miserable and so many people are. It'due south the choices they've made, and information technology'southward the kind of techniques they utilise for dealing with life, that seem like they should work, simply there'due south just massive amounts of evidence that they only don't piece of work. That's besides bad. That's only too bad.

Brett McKay: Right. You besides mention throughout the volume different practices Stoics did to toughen themselves, not only psychologically, but physically. Do you take any favorites from the Stoics of these sort of daily practices to toughen the mental hibernate?

William Irvine: Well, I call it exercises in voluntary discomfort, right? Where you're going out of your manner to do something that you know is going to be difficult and uncomfortable to do. So I give some examples.

One is underdressing slightly for winter weather. You know what, underdress too much and you lot tin become frostbite. That'southward no fun at all. Just to kind of become around thinking, "Yous know what, I'thousand going to allow myself to get a little chip cooler than I normally would. Or in summer I'm non going to turn on the air conditioning quite as much as I unremarkably would." What happens is, y'all expand what you might refer to as your comfort zone.

So there volition exist people that you encounter who have obsessed over keeping the temperature to inside two degrees, you know, Fahrenheit, and their goal, and information technology'southward one of these paradoxes, their goal is personal comfort. Just because they've got it so narrow, the range which they tin operate, they're inevitable going to experience discomfort because they'll motility around, things will change, they'll go places and it won't be their ideal temperature. Whereas if you're used to a wide range of temperature, you lot'll be comfortable in a huge range of temperatures.

And it's really interesting. Considering in rowing, I'yard rowing in short sleeves and in shorts. You know, well into the fall, early on in the spring. There are days that are exceptions. I'm out at that place when information technology's hot too. So as a outcome, I come away with very broad range of comfortable temperatures. I achieve that.

You know, similar thing about food. If y'all're a gourmet, you're probably going to get less pleasure out of nutrient than if you lot simply take whatever nutrient has been placed in front of you and you try to extract the maximal amount of please from that food.

You lot've got it made, if you can experience please over a drinking glass of water. Ordinary h2o, too, non bottled stuff that you paid extra money for. Just if you can be happy drinking a drinking glass of water, y'all're in a bully situation equally far beingness able to be pleased by what life has to offer you.

Brett McKay: So this is interesting, too. You lot highlight in the book, is you lot know, most of our vexations, I experience like in life, are acquired by other human being beings. Family unit members, just an annoying coworker, but instead of, I thought it was interesting about the Stoics, instead of condign hermits and avoiding these people in order to maintain Stoic serenity, the Stoics felt duty-bound to be out there and interact with other people. Why did the Stoics feel that they had a duty to interact with these people that causes most of our problems in life? What was going on in that location?

William Irvine: Okay, the Stoics thought we have a social duty, you know, to be with and to try to help and relate to our fellow human beings. But that didn't go as far as saying nosotros had to go out of our way to notice the most miserable company that we could. For one affair, it's going to be a very depressing time for u.s.a.. For another, there's a skilful chance that we won't be able to assist those people, you know.

There are people whose idea of a relationship is but to stand up there and complain about everything. That person, what that person needs is major change in kind of their approach to life. So what do you do? You try to exist helpful to other people. Yous know, I never become around preaching Stoicism considering I've institute it's a great way to lose people's attention. Merely yous know what, yous tin can throw these footling $.25 of Stoic advice and yous don't even necessarily attribute them to Stoics. You can thereby brand a difference in people's lives.

So if somebody's worried nearly something, and you know, just to throw out a suggestion like, "Well, is at that place annihilation that y'all can practise to alter this?" "Well, no." "Okay, so don't worry." Yous know, it's interesting how that can have a profound touch. How somebody can sort of realize, "You know what? He's got a betoken there." One other thing well-nigh adults is they take to be ready for whatever advice comes forth.

You know, another matter is, you can pb by instance in a way. If people can sense that in your own life, you're thriving, then they get curious. And they wonder, "Well, what's he doing that I'1000 not doing?" And if you lot're miserable, people acquire from that too. Aforementioned kind of thing, the opposite lesson. "What'due south he doing, that I should avoid doing?"

Merely information technology'south a strangely paradoxical philosophy. Goes confronting what most people recollect is common sense. But then again, lots of people are pretty miserable.

Brett McKay: Right.

William Irvine: And then maybe nosotros shouldn't pay attention to what well-nigh people go by.

Brett McKay: So there's a lot of talk these days about like, trigger warnings and microaggressions and insults and slights and political correctness. What would the Stoics say about these ideas?

William Irvine: Stoics thought that we should become insult pacifists. That we should simply reject to play the insult game. That when insulted, we should but carry on as if nothing had happened. They can have criticism. I mean, as a Stoic, I'm e'er on the lookout for people who can teach me something important nearly something I don't know. So I'grand perfectly open to that and seek that out.

So I grant people what I think of internally as mentor condition. So I don't go around telling people they've be granted this, but there'll be somebody I realize knows a whole lot well-nigh something so the plan is, what yous do is you heed very advisedly. You take mental notes. If that person says something critical about what yous're doing, then you lot take that seriously. That's what yous're looking for. You're looking for feedback. And so that isn't an insult. That's a useful suggestion.

Now, there are other people, though, who being usual people, are used to playing the insult game. So there'll exist all these putdowns and everything else and so. So Stoics' betoken of view is you shrug information technology off considering look at the source.

Look at the source. You become aroused when dogs bark at you? Hope not, right? And if you do, that's giddy, because dogs, you know, don't bark for good reasons. I don't know. I'one thousand non a canis familiaris. Maybe they do. But dogs bark because that's just kind of their reflexive way of responding, and that's how humans are.

The other, deeper, Stoic insight with insults is that if you ignore insults it's deeply agonizing to the person who insulted you. Because he's out to hit y'all. He's out to hurt you. He realizes he hasn't achieved his goal.

Brett McKay: So, we've talked a lot nearly some of these Stoic practices. And I think it's fantastic, simply yous know, Stoicism has gotten a lot of criticism in the globe of philosophy. I know Bertrand Russell, 20th century philosopher, said that, "There's an element of sour grapes in Stoicism" because you know, information technology's like, "Well, I can't get that thing, so I only don't intendance. I'yard indifferent to it." How would you reply to that criticism toward Stoicism?

William Irvine: A lot of philosophers, professional person philosophers, who have an interest in Stoicism accept an academic interest in Stoicism. And then to play the bookish game well, and I have played the game, considering it's what you want to do, it's what y'all have to practice if y'all desire to have a career in philosophy. Well, what you practise is you await at ancient texts that accept been already looked at thousands of times. You write a paper almost what the text says so some other bookish somewhere else can write some other paper that challenges your paper. Back and forth.

So there are academics who don't understand what Stoicism is, for them it'due south just an intellectual game that they play as part of making their living. Those same individuals would reject the idea of a philosophy of life. So that'south a curious affair. Because that'southward precisely what the ancient Stoics intended it to be. They said, "It isn't something you should just call back most or write about, it's a way of living."

Then I would propose that the person yous just described doesn't really comprehend what Stoicism is virtually. They've picked one aspect of Stoicism and so focused their attention on that, and said, "That's non an advisable affair."

Another affair to keep in mind about the ancient Stoics is at that place'south a corking separate. Offset came the Greek Stoics and and so came the Roman Stoics. And with the Roman Stoics, there seems to have been a real alter in the focus of Stoicism. And that'southward where this whole notion of serenity comes in. The Greeks took a different line. It was all about virtue. Then you tin actually say in the ancient earth in that location are probably, like, two Stoicisms, not a single document.

But again, if you look at the Roman Stoics, they didn't have the reputation as beingness these soured individuals. In fact, they had a reputation for existence friendly, in many cases. They did take friends. They did take delight in life. So it'due south a kind of a criticism that rings hollow if you actually await at the ancient Stoics.

Brett McKay: Well, Beak, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more than well-nigh your book and the rest of your work?

William Irvine: Well, they can have a expect at the Guide to the Good Life: The Aboriginal Art of Stoic Joy, which was published about ten years agone, but Oxford University Press and has gone on to accept an incredible life in terms of sales, longevity, however else yous desire to measure it. I'chiliad absolutely flabbergasted that information technology has, because when I wrote it, I wrote it with the assumption that probably nobody in the world's ever going to read this book, just I take a social duty to write it.

And so that says it also every bit I can say the sorts of things we've been talking about. And also, it'due south not a book written for academics. It's a volume for ordinary people who experience that their lives aren't going too as could be the example and who want to straighten their lives out in some sense. And also, the advice information technology offers, information technology isn't like Buddhism, where you might have to practice information technology for several decades earlier it starts working for you. You volition know within a thing of days whether y'all're cutting out to be a Stoic or non.

Since I wrote that book, at that place's been a number of other Stoic books that have come up out. You know, you lot can wait on Amazon to find out some of the other titles. I've likewise written a book on insults that is highly Stoic-dependent. Then people who had a particular involvement in that, that book's also published by Oxford University Printing. And then that'southward where y'all tin find out more than.

I likewise had a, for awhile at that place I had a Stoic blog going, the title of it was 21stcenturystoic.org and the postings are still out there. I've gotten busy doing other things. Then that'southward actually a way yous can get on top of Stoicism, at least as seen past me, without having even to invest in a book.

Brett McKay: Fantastic. Well, Bill Irvine, thank you so much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure.

William Irvine: Oh, thanks for having me as a guest.

Brett McKay: My guest today was Bill Irvine, he's the author of the book A Guide to the Expert Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy. It's bachelor on amazon.com and really, exit in that location and get it. It's a cracking volume. Actually easy read and a great introduction to Stoicism. Plus, I just honey how Beak makes everything very actionable and helps y'all try to implement this stuff in your life today. Likewise check out your bear witness notes at aom.is/stoic, where you can find links to resource, where yous can delve deeper into this topic.

Well, that wraps up some other edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more than manly tips and advice, brand certain to check out the Fine art of Maniless website at artofmanliness.com. If you enjoy this testify and accept got something out of it, I'd appreciate information technology if you'd give usa a review on iTunes or Stitcher. That helps us out a lot. Every bit always, thank you for your connected support. Until next fourth dimension, this is Brett McKay, telling yous to stay manly.

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